PerfectlyTurbulent

Hahah…your timing is impeccable with this blog Mike let me tell you…and this response has taken up my entire lunch hour.

From a woman’s perspective (with an embarrassing amount of experience saying “No, no, were just friends, ____ would never think of me like that”) NO, men and women cannot be close friends without ever having sexual tension or feelings involved. And most women have their minds fully wrapped around this concept (we can just be very good at lying to ourselves).

Sure men and women can maintain a long term friendship and keep it PG, but at some point one of them will acknowledge the elephant in the room, wither it is with a small joke or a full on snog session. Don’t get me wrong, this entire experience can be a hell of lot of fun (sometimes the best part actually) and it doesn’t have to go any further than that. But to believe that close male/female friends can exist without ever having that ‘what if’ thought is absurd.

A friend is, by Webster’s definition, ‘a favoured companion’. Normally a favoured companion is someone you share common interests with, have a comfortable bond with, can be your embarrassing self with, enjoy their company, have similar ideas as or they inspire new ones etc. How can two people of the opposite sex with all those factors lining up NOT experience sexual tension or feelings for each other at some point considering this is so rare to find?! It may not be a consistent feeling or strong enough to do anything about, but it will occur for one of the people involved. (For those who just said “No it won’t” to the computer screen, yes it will )

For those male friends that a woman finds herself with (and vice versa) it’s more often than not the result of bad timing/circumstance that lead them to falling into the friend zone. Common scenarios include one or both are taken at the time, one lives far away, one is a friends ex, one is just getting out of a serious relationship, one is honestly not interested (lack of physical attraction possibly) and the other is standing by the sidelines wishing and hoping (and thinking *snap* and praying *snap*…refer to the opening credits of “My Best Friends Wedding” for that relevant oldies tune) they’ll change their mind. Then there is the favourite…both are genuinely holding onto the friend card to test the waters more naturally when getting to know each other and end up letting the moment pass them by.

When this accidental friendship naturally grows into a close confidant type of thing and the two people genuinely care about each other, both parties at some point (but laughably it’s never at the same time) are faced with a choice. Option A) do something about it and risk loosing them or option B) never cross that line to keep them in their lives for the long haul (an honourable yet naive thought). In theory, keeping one’s mouth shut seems like the smartest move. However it can lead to sporadic reoccurring ‘what if’ daydreams (or nightmares) and can hinder future experiences for not living up to a self-made fantasy that never was.

On the flip side, two people who were initially attracted and fell into the ‘friend zone’ with each other get an exclusive all access pass to the other persons unedited mannerisms and qualities (especially how they are in relationships via the hours of conversations they put each other through). This might lead them to find that they are MUCH better off being just friends. Funny enough those friendships tend to fade away…geez…I wonder why that would happen?!

So after saying that, I have a few questions to throw out there.

Is Nora overreacting for feeling like she should change your harmless friendship (or possibly abandoning it all together) or is this honestly her only viable option? Should people hold onto a friendship like this when it could risk an extraordinary relationship? Now I’m not saying get rid of all existing opposite sex friends here (it’s crazy to cut off people that you care about), but are unsaid limits needed for how personal the interactions and conversations can be in these cases? I believe there comes a point where the friends can admit that nothing would ever happen and they truly are just friends with a lot of history, but how are partners supposed to feel about these friendships?

In a perfect world partners would be accepting of the situation, not get jealous of the friendship and (hypocritically) not have a similar situation of their own. But in reality the friend will always be an issue between the couple and the third wheel will be inevitably phased out (not necessarily the friend in some cases). Really, how do you explain to a partner that there is someone from the past who will always be there and they are just going to have to accept it? But the harder question is, being the person with the friend, how do you let a constant figure in your life like that go completely? Would you want to? Is it even possible?

I guess the silent hope is that people find someone that just wows them, inspires them and surpasses all those ‘what if’ experiences causing them to just let go and protect what they’ve found by implementing boundaries with others. And it looks like that’s what Nora is trying to do.

Good on you Nora. Very few could admit it, let alone do it. It is inspiring.

I think I have to agree with Billy Crystal. Maybe in my younger years, I would have naively said the “No, no, we’re just friends” line and truly believed it. But as you grow up, things change. And with some life experience under your belt, you soon realize that either you’re lying to yourself or you’re just not ready to take the leap and make a move. Sex is ALWAYS on the agenda, but it’s just not men thinking about it, women are too. There are times when I know I should have taken the leap, there are times when I know I should not have allowed someone else to take the leap. But there was one time, where I took a leap, he followed my lead and a few kisses later (and a vow to keep things just between us) and…I don’t know. I can’t say it ruined the friendship, but we did lose touch sort of, then met up again. At one time, we were really very close…if asked, I would have said that he was my “best-guy-friend” (you know what I’m talking about girls). So, where did things go wrong? But that is just another way of saying “what if?” I think that Nora is brave; she is willing to put a friendship on the line for a relationship…and yes, that IS rare. As for our last commentator, Christina, I think she’s right too. If two friends are so compatible in so many other ways, it doesn’t make sense as to why they can’t make a relationship work. Plus, I really enjoyed the movie soundtrack reference.

Before I begin my two-cents, I would just like to tell Mike the way my universe worked with this blog entry. I woke up and decided to take a peak at your blog b/c I’ve been neglecting it. Read this entry and was pissed that I had to run to a seminar and couldn’t respond. Esp. b/c last night I watched the preview for “Maid of Honour” with oh so yummy Patrick Dempsey realizing his love for his “best-girl-friend” – this blog’s topic has been on my mind ever since. Then, as I raced to my college, Ani DeFranco’s version of “wishing & hoping” came on my stereo from my very diverse mix (see Christina’s response). So, when I should have been paying attention to cash flow statements and clinic valuations in my seminar, I was instead plotting my response to this.

Although tough to admit, I have on numerous occasions been victim of thinking that my guy friendships are strictly platonic. I currently have said “best-guy-friend” and STILL reside in my little naive world with him (b/c it’s SCOTT and he would NEVER!) … even though I’ve had enough experience with loving and losing some of the best friends I’ve ever had. And sadly, most of these loses have resulted in quite the heartache on my end – them ignoring me for months, while I stew about what could possibly have gone wrong, while later learning that they couldn’t stomach being around me and not “with me” (insert: I’ve fallen in love with you). So I think I want to add to Christina’s option choices of what to do when in this scenario with C) abruptly end the friendship b/c you can’t be around someone you’re falling for but can’t have, and it’s easier than choosing option A or B. I only add this option b/c I’ve been victim of it three times.

One case addresses a question Christina asks – “Should people hold onto a friendship like this when it could risk an extraordinary relationship?”. My very good friend Paul confessed his feelings for me; we talked about it, and decided to continue on as friends anyway. I left the city, went to Europe, and returned months later for a visit. That day I had also met his lovely new girlfriend (to the best of my knowledge they are now married and very happy). But on that day, I saw a flicker across Paul’s face that told me he wouldn’t be contacting me again … ever. And he never did. I can only predict that I stirred up some feelings in him and the only thing he could do to be totally committed to his new, very cherished relationship was to let me go. A very brave thing indeed. I miss him terribly, but I also understand completely.

In contrast to that, I have a current guy friend who’s been in my life for almost 8 years now where we crossed the yada, yada, yada boundry (see Mike’s entry) years ago, but still remain the same caliber of friends. We would hang out as friends for a period of time, all too acutely aware of the sexual tension growing between us, only to end up in a raging make out fest (usually in my kitchen) and then returning to just simply hanging out … cycle repeat. It went on for about 3 years before we really crossed the barrier into complicating sex. It only happened a few times and hasn’t since. But, we’ve still, in my opinion, kept our friendship going very well, regardless of the sex blip on our timeline. We have a great deal in common and I constantly look forward to our very invigorating and challenging conversations. I can’t speak for him, but yes of course, the “what if” use to always cross my mind. But, it’s not an issue now.

So, in the words of my lawyer (with everything that I ask), perhaps “it depends”. Like most things in life, situations bring with them different circumstances and players. Paul’s feelings for me aren’t always the case – sometimes it’s the opposite (me in love with Paul). Not all guy friends are like Mike (suggestive & flirty with their female friends). Not all boyfriends are like Nora’s (mine knows my best friend Scott and the other men I have friendships with and so far, seems to be completely comfortable with it). Sometimes the friendship stays strong and sometimes it dwindles. I think that honesty is best and communication is key. All the other questions Christina asks are very interesting ones that I think couples can openly chat about … and consequently be closer because of it. B/c even though most men & women have wrapped their heads around this issue, it can’t be prevented. It has and always will surface.

Thanks for posting ladies. These comments were hilarious to read. I think every guy and girl has been in situations similar to the ones you all mentioned. Perhaps its just human nature. Two people get close to one another and sometimes that closeness and comfort evolves into something, and sometimes its mistaken for attraction. But most times that evolution is a one-side feeling that unfortunately never reaches both parties, and therein lies your problem.

All I know is that a girl with too many guy friends is trouble, end of story. Whenever I do end up getting another serious girlfriend, around 2011 all I expect is someone that has as much respect for me that I do for them and I think that’s what it comes down to. And by that I mean, if I’m in a committed relationship, its one thing to have communication and friendships with the opposite sex but there is always a line and a distance that must be kept.

And I think if more women realized the male mind a little better their lives would be a lot easier. The last thing I want is to be showing up at the reception at my own wedding and the guest list is riddled with men that have been at one time “involved” with my new wife…but now they’re just friends. No dice. Is it too much to ask that at your own wedding you should be the only guest that’s seen the bride naked besides her girlfriends and parents? I think not.

People try to be friends with everyone and appease everyone and hold on to friendships that have long expired. If women AND men spent a little more time focusing on making the closest relationships in their lives stronger instead of keeping a million friendships alive on life support via facebook; I think a lot more romantic relationships would stand the test of time.

I am on the Billy Crystal side of this as well. At one point, like Lori says, I may have believed otherwise. As I get older I think the only ’safe’ way to have guy friends is to make sure they aren’t single. Of course there is the chance that the girlfriend gets jealous of you or you of her…or few other scenarios none of which end well.
That being said single or not I’d be lost without my guy friends. They are there to remind me of how the brain of your average male works, hold me when I get dumped & kick the ass of the guy who dumped me. It’s different then having the girls eat ice cream with me & listen to me rant.

The one thing that is really grating me about this post is the whole idea of giving up a friendship for a significant other:
“…commend anyone that is willing to put all of themselves into a relationship”
Holy shit is that the wrong plan. The biggest regret all of my older, mostly divorced, female relatives regret is abandoning friendships (male or female) at the request of a partner. Why? Well, there are two main reasons I’ve found and discovered a lot of my generation is living by:
1) When it comes down to it, who is going to be around longer, a girl/boyfriend or a non-betrothed to you friend? Since most of my friends are still single I’m going to say the latter. I’ve outlasted a lot of significant others.
2) Determining another person’s friendships based on your own insecurities should set off a big alarm bell in your head. It is a huge sign of someone who wants to control and/or dominate the relationship. It also shows a healthy amount of distrust in jealousy. Why on earth would you condone that as being a sign of ‘committed’ to a relationship? I consider it a sure sign that a relationship isn’t going to last. Seriously, if you are threatened by a guy thousands of miles away how do you feel about her male co-workers? The guy she thanks at the grocery store? How high is your paranoia level?

The idea is that your significant other WILL outlast your current friends of the opposite sex. You both go off and get married and have families and that SHOULD be your first priority. Do you notice that all the people that regret giving up some of their friendships are all “mostly divorced”? That speaks volumes to me.

I just think if I am in a relationship, my priority is my partner not some of my other female friends. Now I don’t cut all ties with those friends when I have a girlfriend, but the ones that I admit were more based on feelings from one side or the other certainly take a backseat and I think that’s only respectful to my new g/f.

In the case of Nora, her b/f said he didn’t feel comfortable with the relationship her and I had, and she took that as a sign that she should further herself from me for the good of her relationship and I do commend her for that. Her now fianceé should be her priority, not my friendship, and I understand that. He’s the one that’s going to be with her hopefully for a long time, everyday, raising a family and going through life, not me. And I think she certainly has her priorities straight. Too many people keep their opposite sex friends on the backburner for the “just in case scenario” and I think that’s handicapping your relationship from the start.

I do see exactly what you mean about some people just being paranoid, controlling etc. And sure there is some truth to that, but then again, you have to evaluate each situation under their unique circumstances. Maybe the guy or girl have reasons to be paranoid and instead of breaking up they want to give the relationships a shot. But unfortunately that gap in trust usually begins to break down everything else.

Also, your guy friends “kick the ass of the guy that dumped me”? I remember that was an appropriate course of action when I was 16. You might want to try the ice cream and ranting approach next time. And if your guy friends have told you how the average male mind works, then they should have mentioned that each of them would likely sleep with you if given the opportunity. They’ve already told you that, not verbally, but by “comforting and kicking ass” seems to say it all.

I see your point. I just think putting all of your attention onto one person is risky. That is how people lose themselves in relationships. Then the interests, hobbies, people or whatever that brought you together in the first place disappear.
Admittedly I am one of those people who does pour everything into relationships. More often then not it has been the wrong approach. You just end up smothering each other which in turn becomes a death knell of the relationship.

The ass kick sentiment was more metaphorical. Maybe chivalrous would be a better word? Meaning most of my guy friends would not let some sleazy guy at a bar harass me. They (and the feminist in me hates to say this) would protect me the same as their girlfriend or any other girl out with us.

Lmao – Believe me they tell me. I know. Sometimes it’s consummated. Other times not. A lot of my relationships started, ended or were in some way predicated on the whole men & women can’t just be friends platform. Which is why I got sucked into the post in the first place.